New: $1, $2 : 98.49% Bdlx, 98.80% BDW, 98.98% DDB, 98.85% SA, 98.15% TDB throughout Casino Blu section

Natalie McCray

New: (3) $5 : 99.54% JoB, 99.17% BP, 99.64% Bdlx, 98.98% DDB in the High Limit area

New: (3) $25 : 99.54% JoB, 99.17% BP, 99.64% Bdlx, 98.98% DDB in the High Limit area

New Location/Notes - (14) 25¢ 3/5/10 Play : 97.30% JoB scattered around casino

Turning Stone has a Compact and is a Class III establishment so the VP should work exactly the same as in Nevada.

The full-pay $5 JoB has been joined by a few $25 games outside the high-limit poker area. A nearby bank of $1 3/5/10 play machines had 9/5 JoB paytables, as did the rows of $1 single line JoB located in several places on the floor. The quarter games were all 8/5 or worse, and I recall seeing some at 7/5 (they may have been nickel games). There were some banks of odd-looking lower-denomination VP/Keno machines that may or may not have been VLTs, but I didn't investigate these closely as they tended to be occupied (while the better-paying machines sat mostly empty!) I've read claims here that the VP at Turning Stone is not random but the games I played certainly seemed above-board to me. I don't see why they would bother to post short paytables that decline in line with the denomination if the games weren't real VP.

As for the Karat points (their comp system), the rate at which you earn them is based on coin-in as well as time playing. If you pop $1,000 in but are only there for 15min, you will earn less than if you spread that $1,000 out over several hours. There are some theories that if you sit down and play 1cent per spin slots you can still earn lots of karats - I have not yet had a chance to spend a few hours testing this theory. As for the value of karats, 1 karat = $1 in food at their restaurants. 1 karat = $1 to enter tournaments. They also allow you to exchange karats for free play cards - from dec 5th till dec 19th (i think it migh tbe the 23rd), you can exchange 25 karats for $25 free play - if you want real cash the ratio is pretty bad.

Turning Stone Update as of 4/24/05: 519 Video Poker machines: 219- 25c "old style" machines (upright and slant-top) 130- $1 "old style" machines (upright and slant-top) 114- 25c Game King machines (upright and slant-top) 30- $1 Game King machines (upright and slant-top) 12- $5 Game King machines (upright) 14- 25c 3,5,10 play (slant-top) TS now has some ***FULL PAY*** machines. They have 9/6 JoB on $5 machines. I'm not sure what is considered "full pay" for most of the other games. They also have 14 new (25c) Multi-Play machines near the hot dog stand by the old reservation desk. The games are JoB, DW, DB, DDB (8/5 JoB is best game on Multi-Play). The Game King machines have varying pay tables, but they seem to be pretty consistent across denominations. SUMMARY: JoB ($5) - ***FULL PAY***, (12) machines near high-limit pit ($1) - 30 machines; 14 are near craps tables (25c) - all over casino (Plus fourteen 3,5,10 Multi-Play) (25c) - Very rare (I know of two Game King machines) Bonus Poker ($5) ***I think this is considered FULL PAY*** ($1) (25c) Double Bonus Poker ($5) ($1) (25c) - (Plus fourteen 3,5,10 Multi-Play machines) (25c) Double Double Bonus Poker ($5) ($1) (25c) - (Plus fourteen 3,5,10 Multi-Play machines) Deuces Wild ($5) ($1) (25c) (25c) - (3,5,10 Multi-Play) *** Joker Poker (25c & $1) old style machines with 3200 jackpot for quints ($1) Game Kings with 4700 jackpot for Royal (25c & $1) Game Kings with 4700 jackpot for Royal The old style machines have Joker Poker and JoB. The pay tables are the same on all of these machines. JoB is 8/5 and Joker Poker has a unique 5oaK jackpot with a return of 98.61% (according to Frugal VP - I can't find this pay table published anyplace else). These machines are all over the casino. Joker Poker Pay Table for Five of a Kind Jackpot (25c and $1): Hand----1coin---5coin 5K--------200----3200 RF--------100-----500 (apparently natural or wild) SF---------50-----250 4K---------12------60 FH----------9------45 FL----------6------30 ST----------4------20 3K----------2------10 2P----------1-------5 A's---------1-------5 OTHER COMMENTS: My best guess is that it takes about $600-700 coin in to equal one point (Karat). They sometimes have a cash back offer of 10c per point (so 100 Karats = $10). They do not offer this all the time.

Fairness of VP games: I have concluded that these are "fair" VP machines. I have played VP at TS approximately 25-30 times in the last 9 months. My results are consistent with practice sessions using Frugal Video Poker. Also, due to the complexity of the pay tables on the newer machines, I believe the machines are "legit". If the machines were not truly random VP machines (i.e. "rigged" in some way), it seems like they would just offer full-pay schedules on all the machines and then simply lower the frequency of certain hands in order to produce a lower return for the customer. Since most players do not understand how to read pay tables, it makes no sense for the casino to develop a complex mix of schedules in order to try and fool the relatively small number of players who do know the difference.

I have played there for years. I find it hard to believe the above statement since I don't seem to lose at VP at Turning Stone at any faster rate than I do elsewhere ... Would you know of any way to confirm this "video lottery system" business? Would the casino give me any information? If it is true, I won't bother going there anymore. Anyway, I did a little inventory at TS tonight and wanted to provide an update. They have approximately 175 (.25) JoB machines, mostly slant-top but some upright. They have about 90 ($1) JoB machines. Very recently they have added about 65 Game King machines with the following games (beware the low return): JoB 7/5 (96.14%), JoB 6/5 (95%), Double Bonus (94.2%), Double Double Bonus (96.79%), Deuces Wild (95.96%).

Please tell all members not to play at the Turning Stone Casino in Verona, NY. The VP is based on a video lottery system where all of the dealt hands are predetermined and you join a specific game. The games are based on a pull tab concept. The actual returns of these games are nowhere near 97% but closer to 60-70%. Avoid these games like the plague!